Log in

No account? Create an account

Mon, Mar. 22nd, 2010, 09:40 pm
kizzikat: Essay on Hephaestion

I don’t know if anyone will be interested but I’ve written a very long, and doubtless boring, essay on Alexander & Hephaestion’s early years. 


1.                  Age(1) http://kizzikat.livejournal.com/15767.html#cutid1

2.                  Mieza http://kizzikat.livejournal.com/16317.html#cutid1

3.                  The Pages http://kizzikat.livejournal.com/16640.html#cutid1

4.                  The Older Pages http://kizzikat.livejournal.com/17258.html#cutid1

5.                  Age (2) http://kizzikat.livejournal.com/17813.html#cutid1

6.                  Erastes/eromenos (1) http://kizzikat.livejournal.com/18109.html#cutid1

7.                  Erastes/eromenos (2) http://kizzikat.livejournal.com/18197.html#cutid1

8.                  Amyntas http://kizzikat.livejournal.com/18546.html#cutid1

9.                  Alexander of Epirus http://kizzikat.livejournal.com/18884.html#cutid1

10.              The women of Alexander’s family (1) http://kizzikat.livejournal.com/19169.html#cutid1

11.              The women of Alexander’s family (2) http://kizzikat.livejournal.com/19375.html#cutid1

12.              Ages of Alexander’s associates http://kizzikat.livejournal.com/19543.html#cutid1


Mon, Mar. 22nd, 2010 11:35 pm (UTC)

I just wanted to let you know how much I enjoyed your essays. There was certainly some food for thought and further research there. Well done! I know you cite your sources as you go but it would be nice to have them as a listing too. That is NOT a criticism. I am inherently lazy!

Bravo! Made me want to delve back into my histories and write about Alexander again!

Tue, Mar. 23rd, 2010 09:02 am (UTC)

Thank you! I did think about footnotes, but thought it might make it seem to be pretending to be academic (which it isn't!). I can certainly provide a list of the books I used.

I remember reading some of your stories a long time ago - so please, please do write some more!

Tue, Mar. 23rd, 2010 07:54 pm (UTC)

Book list as requested:

Hephaistion Amyntoros: Eminence Grise at the court of Alexander the Great – Jeanne Reames-Zimmerman – 1998 doctoral thesis
Alexander of Macedon by Peter Green - 1970 Penguin Books
Alexander the Great by Robin Lane Fox - 1973 Futura Publications Ltd
The Campaigns of Alexander by Arrian – Penguin Classics
The Age of Alexander by Plutarch – Penguin Classics
The Greek Alexander Romance – Penguin Classics
The History of Alexander by Quintus Curtius Rufus – Penguin Classics
Justin Epitome of the Philippic History of Pompeius Trogus – J C Yardley and Waldemar Heckel 1997 Clarendon Ancient History Series Oxford
Alexander the Great The Invisible Enemy by John Maxwell O’Brien – 1992 Routledge
Alexander’s Lovers by Andrew Michael Chugg – 2006 lulu.com (very useful for reproducing those hard to find quotes such as Aelian)
The Marshals of Alexander’s Empire by Waldemar Heckel – 1992 Routledge (very detailed but dry as dust)
Philip of Macedon by Nicholas Hammond – 1994 Duckworth (my favourite – very readable and full of lesser known detail)

Tue, Jan. 4th, 2011 09:19 am (UTC)

Hi, would you like to tell me where I can get "Hephaistion Amyntoros: Eminence Grise at the court of Alexander the Great – Jeanne Reames-Zimmerman – 1998"? I searched it long time and I can't find it anywhere.
Thank you very much :)

Tue, Jan. 4th, 2011 05:58 pm (UTC)

If you go to this page http://disexpress.umi.com/dxweb and type jeanne reames-zimmerman in the author line and 9915935 in the UMI publication number, that should get you there!

Wed, Jan. 5th, 2011 05:44 am (UTC)

Thank you very much :)

Tue, Mar. 23rd, 2010 03:55 am (UTC)
valoa: Thank you!

You are a germ:)

Tue, Mar. 23rd, 2010 09:05 am (UTC)
kizzikat: Re: Thank you!

I'm glad you enjoyed it!

Tue, Mar. 23rd, 2010 12:13 pm (UTC)
apollinaris: Quintus Curtius Rufus

"The only reference we have for Hephaestion’s age, apart from Arrian calling him a young man at his death, is from Curtius..." which exemplifies the problem of learning about the life of Alexander (including, of course, Hephaestion).

This Rufus is writing ca 60 CE. We do not have his sources. These two facts alone make him unreliable.

But more than that, Rufus is part of a wider context of politics and philosophy for the period and in that, I don't see him as a historian. In short, this is part of the mythology and faith of those times, not history.

Tue, Mar. 23rd, 2010 02:44 pm (UTC)

By that token, is there ever such a thing as history?

Tue, Mar. 23rd, 2010 02:56 pm (UTC)

The nature of history is another discussion, I think. If you wish me to define my terms, then I mean history as the study of the human past (rather than cultural heritage).

Tue, Mar. 23rd, 2010 03:06 pm (UTC)

But all writers are influenced by 'the wider context of politics and philosophy for the period'. That is the purpose of source criticism: to analyse the texts within those contexts and to try to understand why they are saying what they are saying - obviously, a massively imprecise science. But to throw it all out as fundamentally 'unreliable' is pointlessly reductive, imo.

Tue, Mar. 23rd, 2010 03:29 pm (UTC)

Thank you for expanding on your point. My description of Rufus as unreliable applies to him as a source for the 4th century and Alexander. What he was saying is important, though in a different context, in my opinion.

Tue, Mar. 23rd, 2010 04:00 pm (UTC)

Fair enough. I would certainly agree, to a point. However, to my mind there is a difference in disputing the validity of cultural/political attitudes (such as the erastes/eromenos template kizzikat treats in her essay, or Curtius' portrayal of plots), and in doubting the statement of basic facts such as age. That doesn't make it a certainty - given that no other sources address it, and that, as you point out, we do not have the ultimate source for Curtius' information - but it doesn't mean we should dismiss it entirely.

Edited at 2010-03-23 04:00 pm (UTC)

Tue, Mar. 23rd, 2010 03:35 pm (UTC)
kizzikat: Re: Quintus Curtius Rufus

Curtius certainly is unreliable, given to exaggeration and romanticism, but given the limited sources we have on Alexander, surely we should hold on to everything we have - just examine it carefully? As proskynesis says, isn't that the purpose of the study of history, to try to ascertain what is and what isn't true?

Surely though, we can trust Curtius on such a generalised statement. He is not specific about Hephaestion's exact age, but he does not state either that he was an old man or a boy. True, he might wish to romanticise Alexander and Hephaestion's relationship, but if that was his point, he could have been much more explicit. I don't see that there is any reason to doubt that Hephaestion was a young man, about the same age as Alexander.

BTW, I only saw your other post the other day and I will try and reply tonight.

Tue, Mar. 23rd, 2010 04:14 pm (UTC)
apollinaris: Re: Quintus Curtius Rufus

Well, perhaps I should apologise for posting as I did, for it was provocative and I am unprepared to follow through in a detailed manner.

I regard Historiae Alexandri Magni as part of a movement of the first two centuries concerned with the deification of Alexander and therefore I would not accept any detail at face value.

One of the reasons I am ill-prepared is that I do not know yet of any possible relationship between Quintus Curtius Rufus and Gaius Musonius Rufus and if so, what that may mean. A possible connection with Apollonius of Tyana is interesting to me in this regard.

Examine carefully, yes and also within context, which is how it becomes really interesting (and difficult) I find.

Tue, Mar. 23rd, 2010 07:58 pm (UTC)
kizzikat: Re: Quintus Curtius Rufus

I'm afraid you've gone beyond me here. I don't know anything about Gaius Musonius Rufus or Apollonius of Tyana (Tyre?).

Tue, Mar. 23rd, 2010 08:19 pm (UTC)
apollinaris: Re: Quintus Curtius Rufus

Some starting points:
"The Suda states that there are "speeches about philosophy bearing his name," and mentions letters to Apollonius of Tyana. The letters that survive are certainly not authentic. It is unknown whether Musonius wrote anything for publication. His philosophical opinions were collected by two of his students. One collection of Discourses, by a certain Lucius, form the basis of the 21 lengthy extracts preserved by Stobaeus. A second collection was compiled by one Pollio; it has been lost, but some fragments survive in quotations by later writers."

"Apollonius of Tyana... was a Greek Neopythagorean philosopher from the town of Tyana in the Roman province of Cappadocia in Asia Minor...compared to Jesus of Nazareth by pagans in the fourth century and by various popular writers in modern times."


On Musonius Rufus: A Brief Essay (1999) Richard Carrier http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/musonius.html
"Since this man deserves far more publicity than he has ever gotten in the modern age, I have written this short essay. He exemplifies the sort of man who should have been venerated and made the founder of a world religion, but was not, yet he was the moral superior in my opinion to Jesus--not perfect, but admirable within the context of his own day."

MUSONIUS RUFUS AND THE NEW TESTAMENT by PW Van Der Horst - 1974 http://www.jstor.org/pss/1560226

These touch the surface and even so, perhaps one can see that any connection between one Rufus and the other would provide an interesting context for a history of Alexander.

The cognomen Rufus crops up in some interesting places. My approach in trying to understand how beliefs develop over centuries includes looking closely at the genealogy of the bearers, because such transmission requires, I think, an institution to carry it and a dynasty can be such.

Fri, Dec. 24th, 2010 07:58 pm (UTC)

Thank you! Bookmarked for a later read ♥

Mon, Dec. 27th, 2010 09:36 am (UTC)

Hope you enjoy it!